Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #1 on Mar 1, 2010, 10:07am »
A few things to start us off.
Milles seems kind of manic. He’s up then down to the point of suicide. I would think anyone who contemplates suicide would always be prone to try or at least contemplate again if things looked down. Cerulean, you’re the expert. Well not sure if it’s your field but anyway….
Also Milles does not seem to concern himself with the moral details with his mercenary venture. When he took the job, he could have been adding a despot. He could have been helping someone committing genocide. He only concerns himself with the treatment of those near him.
Do you think the mercenaries too easily came to his side? I thought that was a little too easy. Oh and what about the chance meeting with Elaina mother. I mean in all the galaxy?
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #2 on Mar 2, 2010, 12:18pm »
A quick response:
Miles is *very* manic. He's that way through pretty much the rest of the series. He is full of interesting contradictions: very strong intellectually, but weak physically. Very moral, but - as you said - did not consider the morality for running weapons. He had no idea about the governments for whom he ended up fighting. He's very progressive (Betan), but very traditional (Barryar).
He's a fascinating character. I'm not surprised that he was somewhat suicidal after he couldn't get into the Academy. Even Piotr died (naturally) after Miles couldn't get into the Academy. His whole culture is about strength of body - the warrior. That's what LMB did - she put someone who lacked the qualities most admired (and needed) in his culture into play. Yet she made him extremely smart. One main theme of the series is how this kind of man can live, let alone succeed, in a culture that so demeans him. People still make the sign of the devil (essentially) when they see his deformity. So how can he be a leader? Miles doesn't see how he can be anything but a drain on his family once he couldn't pass the physical portion of his Academy trials. Imagine living your entire life in a society knowing you couldn't be the person that your position demanded. There is no backup position in Barryar culture for a Vor count who can't be a warrior. He talks about this with Elaina, I think, when he says that he bears the weight of generations. Every Vorkosigan has excelled in battle and almost all have died in battle. Strength of arms is the *only* way to be a man in his class and culture. They kill the children who have any imperfections, after all. He only lived b/c Cordelia and Aral protected him.
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #3 on Mar 3, 2010, 4:01pm »
Miles is the anti Barryaran. His strengths and weaknesses are opposite the Barryaran standard.
He may have morality but his morality seems to be limited to his field of vision.
As far as Miles succeeding in Barryaran culture. In the span of one lifetime I doubt he could. He could survive and even succeed in limited ways.
But he would never make in a military command. Nor should he really. In any combat role even if not primarily physical, physical tasks are needed. Say he commanded a spaceship. That is strictly a position that doesn’t not require physical prowess but does require mind power. You would think an ideal position for Miles. But in combat, s**t happens. Some equipment traps a fellow crewman. He is the only one who could save him. But with his physical limitation he can’t. No, I wouldn’t want Miles as a fireman either.
Now other jobs he could do well at. Say intelligence work. Or a political position. But if it required him to interact with new people all the time, I don’t think anyone could overcome a populace that treated him as the devil. It takes time to turn over a whole culture. Look at us. Something like racism. It takes a generation or two to grow out of it I think. He could succeed in a position where he had to convince a limited number of people then work with them. That he could do. And do well.
Also people like him help bring around the change. The more people that see someone like him start the glacier moving. But it does take time.
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #4 on Mar 9, 2010, 11:19am »
Miles does do a pretty good job at succeeding (just to give the whole plot away), but he does make some very interesting mistakes, which definitely humanize him. He's certainly no male "Mary Sue", although he is presented as extremely brilliant. I can't remember how well he succeeds in a military setting, but I think he does a pretty good job in some places. This is something we could talk about for a while throughout the read Something to think about here is that this kind of combat isn't necessarily all hand-to-hand - it's in space. (I'm just stirring the pot a little).
BTW, I always found what happened to Bothari as a bit of justice, really. And not just justice, but necessary for Miles' development. Miles' story begins as an adolescent male finding his way in the world. He's looked over by his very powerful parents as well as his powerful (albeit crazy) protector. He *has* to leave at least temporarily before he can find his own way and make his own mistakes. And find some personality that fits him. So with Bothari always there to back him up, his weaknesses never get a chance to cause too many problems. And he might not have had the courage to approach Elena with her father there. And now he doesn't have Bothari's experience in fighting to fix things. I think about the archetype of the young (usuallyl male) questor and the older male mentor. Think Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc. The older male figure directly mentoring or helping the young man needs to leave. He dies in the examples I gave and here, too. Not that Bothari equals Obi Wan or Dumbledore in wisdom (surely), but he is a more physical protector - and that's what Miles lacks. So LMB took away his "legs" so to speak. Brilliant move.
BTW, I'm on Spring Break right now, so I'm trying to get a little work done and then I'm visiting my best friend in Asheville, NC for the rest of the time. I'm sitting in Barnes & Noble right now doing a little work before she gets off work and we go to tea
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #5 on Mar 9, 2010, 12:21pm »
As far as combat, I know he would not be ‘cast’ in the role of hand to hand. I was just saying that cast or not, in the real world with bulkheads blowing away and bodies flying, everyone may need to call on physical abilities to save lives, not always their own. The military can use people that don’t have physical prowess, but not in combat rolls.
What happened to Bothari brings up a lot of moral questions. As far as punishment for the deed, definitely got his due. But do you think he was mentally fit at the time to be responsible for his actions. I kind of took it as he was driven half mad by what he saw as his duty, following orders and his loathing for what he did. So then in his own mind he convinced himself he was in love with Elena’s mother to allow himself to live with it. So do you drive someone crazy then hold them responsible ?
At what age did he do that anyway? I’m thinking if he was say 30 or 40 years old he has more responsibility for his actions then if he was a young 19 year old ensign.
As far as Miles needing to loose his mentor. Yes, I agree. Even in real life this needs to happen. If a younger man takes over the command from and older officer, they always separate the young man from the older superior. The men would always tend to turn to the older officer and you can’t have that. They need to instinctively turn to the new officer in charge. For personal growth the same thing is true. If you always feel you can fall back on or the mentor will always step in to prevent you from making a big mistake, you will never fully mature. Although is a shame, you need to make mistakes to learn as well. You just hope you don’t get too many killed while learning.
As far as how he does and how he handles himself in a military setting that’s in the next book.
Don't make me find your lack of faith disturbing. *wink* *lol*
Joined: Sept 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 787 Karma: 47
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #6 on Mar 18, 2010, 12:09pm »
Sorry I haven't be participating much. I went back into the hospital for a week in Jan and had some on-going issues afterward. About the time that got cleared up and I was typing up some comments for the Barrayar discussion, I went back in the hospital for a different set of problems. Stayed for two weeks on almost no food; my energy levels are still shot and probably will be for another week or two.
However, excuses made, here's some of my thoughts on The Warrior's Apprentice and the on-going discussion.
********************************** *LOL* Not included in the books, but in some of LMB's comments on them is the basic idea that she started out writing military sci-fi. But she subverted a lot of the basic concepts by making Miles a cripple; in fact, he's essentially a very "female" protagonist, at least in the physical sense. And emotionally, he's not the tough, hardened soldier/killer who is usually the protagonist of military sci-fi. And she snuck a lot of social and social impact of technology issues into what is normally an adventure genre. And made us military sci-fi fans love it.
(Compare Miles to any of David Drake or David Weber's military sci-fi protagonists.)
I agree that the loss of Bothari was absolutely required, or else Miles would always have a Deus ex Bothari for dealing with the need to interrogate prisoners...and he'd be endlessly dealing with the moral issues involved with being responsible for the actions of a sociopath/psychopath, rather than finding his own solutions and dealing with the moral consequences of those.
As to Bothari being responsible for his own actions...that's a complicated issue. I really like the fact that LMB treated it as same and offered no easy solutions. Just as Elena's mother's murder of Bothari was not a simple situation and didn't get an easy solution either. The impact of Bothari's nature and his death affected both Miles and Elena enormously in this book and continued to affect them into the future, at least as far as Mirror Dance and Memory.
Hmm. As far as Miles suicidal tendencies...that is something that people can move beyond. Miles didn't just go emo or "pity me" where the threat draws attention. But, the real thing is susceptible of rational thought, unless driven by clinical depression.
But even when Miles is off his manic phase, he's usually not suicidal. It took some very special circumstances to bring that out. On the flip side, he more often goes into a "spinning wheels" limbo where he takes no action, because suicide isn't an acceptable solution either. That happens after Bothari's death and a few other spots in the series.
However, Miles also has an over-developed sense of responsibility and that can often kick-start him back into action. At least with a bit of help. At least enough to start moving and thinking again and it's tough to stay in limbo once forward motion has been restored, even if it's slow motion.
********** Miles in military situations... Well, Miles would never make it as an infantry officer (and even less as a trooper). But almost any specialist position would allow him to shine. Miles isn't incapable of physical action, he just has to be very cautious about same.
On the other hand, he has (usually) no problem coming up with viable alternatives to physical action.
Even in this book, he attacked the leader of the boarding party (Abuson) knowing he wasn't going to win. But it occupied attention and allowed his people to deal effectively with the whole boarding party. Sure, it would have been nice if he'd been large, strong, and a superb hand-to-hand fighter...but that's not the story being told and he wasn't required to win his own personal fight, just manage his resources and lead his personnel to victory.
As to bringing in the mercenaries...that's actually pretty reasonable, even if it isn't exactly normal. But that's more because most people don't recognize the opportunities and seize them the way Miles does, than because the possibilities aren't there.
Mercenaries are often in a position where they are desperate for employment or--for less reliable types--even willing to change sides.
Now, Elena's mother being among them was explained, but that was an astronomically unlikely at that. "Of all the gin joints in all the world..." I tend to think of it as a synchronicity event, rather than a wildly improbable coincidence.
*********** Miles concern with morals... He mostly learned responsibility and morality from his parents and family history. And how to juggle them with honor, loyalty, love, etc.
In this case, he wasn't short-sighted about the use of the weapons he was smuggling, he just didn't think it was his job to determine that the weaker side wasn't entitled to the weapons. (He did do some research and thinking on the Tau Ceti war, that's how he knew it was weapons and not farm machinery.) But it was his job to find a way to keep Arde Mahew and the ship going. And to repay his liege people and grandmother.
No conflict of morality there, unless he were the type to feel responsible for the actions of the whole universe...which seems a bit like hubris, to me.
I don't think his morality is limited to his field of vision. He certainly felt responsible enough when he reasoned out why Ivan had been dispatched and why the courier ship never arrived. What Miles isn't, is determined to save everyone from themselves.
However, he is easily sucked into "interesting" situations and then feeling responsible for people he met. That's how he "acquired" Ardhe and Baz. (Wanting to impress a girl or relatives is not always an unmixed thing.)
Which leads me to one of the interesting points in the book. Miles main reason for much of what he does is to impress and help Elena. And having to give up his hopes for romance with her is one of the several benchmarks toward adulthood and true responsibility that Miles has to pass in this book.
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #7 on Mar 18, 2010, 8:22pm »
I think I agree with almost everything you say. On the suicide issue, I was thinking (and I don't know) that if you see suicide as a viable solution, it would always be in your bag of solutions. Therefor prone to come up again. Just guessing as I do not pretend to know this field.
And I do see him as morally responsible or should I say irresponsible. If you sell stolen car stereos I feel your just as guilty of stealing as the original thief. I've never understood when people don't hold the get away driver just as responsible for the killing in a bank robbery as the shooter. What did they think would happen when their buddy's took guns into a bank. So, you sell guns to mercenary's, your responsible for what they do with them.
To make this clear. I don't hold the gun seller responsible when they sell a gun over the counter and it's used in a robbery. There are legal uses for guns and the seller had no way of knowing. But you sell guns to a mercenary..... Well what did you think they were for.
P.S. Hope your feeling better soon Genef. Maybe this nice weather as Spring comes will help.
Don't make me find your lack of faith disturbing. *wink* *lol*
Joined: Sept 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 787 Karma: 47
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #8 on Mar 19, 2010, 12:54pm »
I see your point about selling weapons and tend to agree. However, in this case, Miles wasn't selling weapons.
The Tau Cetan faction had already bought the weapons and was trying to smuggle them past a blockade. Miles merely agreed to do so, in exchange for enough money to accomplish his goals/responsibilities. Whether a national government has the right to purchase weapons to defend itself from aggression--or even to conduct aggression--is a matter of the situation and opinion, not an absolute moral position.
Now, if they had been a criminal organization (outlawed by something other than their national enemies), that might be different. As it was, they were still a national government, just the one that couldn't afford a space blockade--or real blockade-runners.
Heck, helping people run a blockade (a blockade would be illegal and possibly piracy under the blockaded side's national laws), could even be regarded as a moral imperative.
The fact is, helping them was pretty much a morally neutral issue. But getting the cash to keep the RG ship running and Mayhew employed, helping Baz off of Beta Colony and out of ImpSec's sights, and repaying the loans he'd taken were moral necessities for Miles.
*LOL* Depending on how you perceive the laws of a given nation, even helping the mafia could be regarded as a good thing. Not that I regard it as such, but I'd sure have no qualms about running guns to criminal organizations in communist China or the old USSR. Might not be the best solution, but it helps discommode a repressive regime that I'm opposed to and is a better alternative than outright war. And criminal organizations normally aren't terrorists in the usual sense of the word. And while I'm not in favor of actual terrorism, I have no problem backing guerrilla forces against a regime I oppose.
Again, it may have unintended consequences, but it does accomplish my immediate goals and I'm not omniscient and can only do my best, then deal with the consequences later. Now, failing to foresee obvious consequences is a different issue from accepting those consequences as acceptable under the circumstances and both are different from ignoring the probable consequences (we can talk about various examples of that if you like). I figure Miles is in the same boat, just with a bit more authorial aid than I have.
********* Thanks for the good wishes. I'm sure hoping the spring weather helps. Or at least time. (And *sigh*, I've got at least one more surgery I know I need to have as soon as I'm once again healthy enough. *huge sigh*)
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #9 on Mar 19, 2010, 2:57pm »
You’ve got my sympathy and I wish you good luck and quick healing.
Personally I don’t see the difference between running the guns and selling them. Gezz officer I didn’t sell cocaine to that 10 year old I just delivered them to him.
I also don’t see running or selling guns as morally neutral. I’m not talking about delivering ‘normal’ guns to a gun store here, but dealing with mercenaries or even a government. In my view I don’t even care if it is an ‘outlaw’ government or not. You are taking a moral stand by doing so. This could be good or bad. Delivering guns to the ‘outlaw’ Americans during the revolution is going to be good or bad depending on how you see it. Delivering guns to the Khmer Rouge is a moral statement in my opinion. Are they breaking away from tyranny or are they terrorist fighting a just and legal government. I also think that good people can disagree in some cases. Sort of like the US Civil War. Men of good character went to different sides.
I see it as a bad idea to support criminals even if they are in USSR or China. Whether it’s criminals in a country (Afghanistan or Russian Mob) or propping up illegitimate leaders (Shaw of Iran, Iraq – Saddam Hussein. )All too often as in almost always, it comes back to bite us.
I can see the though behind it. The lesser of two evils sort of thing. But I think it rarely works out. And what does it say about us. We backed the mujahideen (who morphed into the Taliban) for years, knowing they were selling drugs to Americans (not directly I know). So they could fight the Russians. What did it get us. Millions of kids on drugs, and 9/11. I know I’ve over simplified it. That we would still have drug problems without the Taliban. But how much worse is it because we did back them and similar actions around the world. And I think it could be argued very strongly that without the great increase in power we gave the Taliban by way of the mujahideen, 9/11 may never have occurred. If you support evil, are you surprised when evil grows?
Don't make me find your lack of faith disturbing. *wink* *lol*
Joined: Sept 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 787 Karma: 47
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #10 on Mar 19, 2010, 4:26pm »
Your point about the American Revolution and the American Civil War were exactly my main point. Or WW II Lend-Lease, especially to the Russians.
Yep. We backed the mujahadeen...and that may have been costly. On the other hand, allowing the Russians a free hand in the area could easily have been even more costly in the long run. But frankly, I was actually in favor of not supporting the mujahadeen; didn't see any long term advantages to doing so. And even in the short term, they could get weapons elsewhere with similar results. In fact, it might have resulted in the Russians hanging on even longer, which would have weakened them further and killed even more of the mujahadeen. A win-win proposition in my cold-blooded calculations.
My favorite example of supporting the wrong people for the wrong reasons was the US aid provided to Fidel Castro and Che Gueverra to overthrow the Batista regime--which was essentially friendly to US interests.
Now Batista was a thug and a crook with very few good things going for him...but so was Castro and Gueverra was even worse. More importantly, after helping make sure he'd win, we then turned on Castro because he had communist leanings (I'm not opposed to communism per se).
The fact is, sovereign nations are sovereign and are not subject to the morality of individuals of other nations. Individuals may or may not do business with them for a variety of reasons, but there is no general moral principle that says they must or mustn't do business with a given government. (Now, the policies of their own nation my dictate that, but that's a very different thing.)
In this case, there was no moral reason not to transport the arms.
As to supporting people coming back to haunt us...sometimes it does. Mostly it doesn't. Usually, if it haunts us, it means we made an error in judgment, not in morality.
One person we supported was Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese, then screwed up by failing in our promise of an independent Indochina/Vietnam after WW II. Instead, we returned it to France as a colony and...well, we know what happened then.
Backing the Shah was actually, probably, a good thing...although it's complicated and not unmixed. Failing to back him was probably a very serious strategic error and turned a strong US ally and force for stability and progress in the region into an Islamic-extremist nation under the rulership of a tyrannical and ruthless religious oligarchy that was and is completely inimical to our interests and basic culture and completely opposed to our way of life. Big mistake on our part; we should have given the Shah more intel, advice, and weapons. (And don't get me started on how to handle the Iran hostage situation; you probably wouldn't like either of my solutions...although Machiavelli would probably have approved both of them.)
In any case, those are issues of national policy. As an individual, I'd have had no qualms about selling or delivering weapons to the Shah. Or to Ho Chi Minh during WW II; heck I probably wouldn't have had a problem with it even while the French were in charge...and only patriotism, not morality, would have kept me from doing it during the US involvement there.
So the fact that Miles was delivering weapons for a sovereign nation that happened to be at war with another sovereign nation--and neither one was of interest to Miles or the Barrayaran Empire--doesn't bother me at all. He had no moral obligations there.
He did have a moral obligation to his people. And delivering the weapons was a reasonable opportunity to meet those obligations. Of course, it turned out to be more complicated than he thought, but that's a whole different issue.
An important issue here, I think, is that I see no individual as having either the obligation or the right to impose their own morality on everyone else. They may choose to do business with a government (or other individuals) or not, but that is a matter for their own conscience and not some "objective" moral evaluation. (Note that if their own government has a policy, then it's up to the individual to decide if compliance is more important than moral issues.
I'm not in favor of violating our own laws simply for profit...although I have no problem violating the laws of nations I don't respect for nothing more than profit. I wouldn't violate Great Britain's laws, for instance, but France? No problem. And China or Iran? With great pleasure.
In any case, this situation was a lot more like trying to figure out if it's better to support Paraguay or Bolivia in the Chaco War of the early 30's.
I wouldn't have had a problem transporting weapons to either side. The Paraguayans earning a bit more sympathy from me, but the Bolivians probably paying better and more reliably.
Nor would I have had a problem staying home and selling souvenirs to tourists; that's a lot safer, but isn't exactly the life of travel and adventure. And wouldn't pay off a ship real quick either, like an arms deal might. And if I had an obligation to pay off a ship, then I'd go for an arms deal (or maybe some other scheme).
Personally, I wouldn't have sold arms to the Nazis, but would have to Great Britain. And I might well have transported them to Francisco Franco. Franco wasn't a brilliant leader and certainly wasn't always right, but he was better than the communists (who were more stupidly savage), IMO anyway. And I'd have transported arms to either side in any of the Greek/Turk conflicts of the last couple centuries. Just goes to show that morality isn't simple.
So, that's why I don't have a problem with Miles's decision at all. But I do understand that mine isn't the only viewpoint, although I do have a problem grasping what moral issue is involved in transporting arms (quite legally, at least to everyone but the enemy) to a non-evil, sovereign nation.
*LOL* And that was a ramble.
What do you guys think of Miles intervention to defuse the situation with Arde Mayhew? Or to try and help Baz Jessik? *LOL* I loved the scene with Miles sharing the goldfish with Baz in front of the horrified Betan.
Of course, one of the main things in this book was the creation--almost by accident--of the Dendarii Mercenaries. Something that seemed so reasonable step-by-step, but ended with a very improbable result...and made for a great story.
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #11 on Mar 23, 2010, 7:44am »
I think morals are personal (not governmental), although morals are in part affected by culture. If you look at ancient times and things even our heroes did would appall us if done now.
In Miles case, how do come to the conclusion that there was no moral reason not to transport the arms. Are you saying that it was a good thing or just it was morally neutral? I would think transporting arms to a war would have to be morally positive or negative. I’m not saying you couldn’t be wrong. Just that your reason for doing it would be on one end of the scale or the other.
It seems you’re saying that since Miles had no personal interest in the conflict he had no moral obligations. That seems like your equating morals with self interest. I would think morals may work against self interest at times. Slaves went to the Southern’s interest, but I would say they were immoral.
As for imposing an individual’s morality on others…. Most of us do it all the time. And I would say that’s a good thing. Civil rights, slavery, torture, child labor, etc. These are all cases of one group imposing their personal morals on others. Now I do agree we need to be careful. Where do you draw the line. Abortion would be the most vocal example. Where do personal morals interfere with personal rights?
You also state you see no moral issue because he shipped arms legally. Slaves were sold perfectly legally in the U.S. for years. I still say it was immoral. Legal and morality really are unrelated in my opinion.
When he helped Arde Mayhew and Baz Jessik, that showed two things I think. He believes in second chances and he can empathies with others when he sees the situation first hand.
I also agree that the mercenaries are an example of the best intentions can have unintended consequences. He almost got executed for treason. He was building a military force which was considered treason legally. He never intended it. It just kept escalating.
Don't make me find your lack of faith disturbing. *wink* *lol*
Joined: Sept 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 787 Karma: 47
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #12 on Mar 23, 2010, 12:44pm »
*LOL* Some of the ancient heroes did things that certainly appalled me. But then, many of them were murdered by spouses, relatives, or children, so I'm not sure those acts didn't appall the ancients, too.
However, I'm not sure I was as appalled by as many of their actions as some.
Hmm. Morals--or more importantly, ethics--can certainly run counter to self-interest. An no, I'm not saying morality is a stand-in for interest.
What I meant was that in a war where neither side is especially good or evil, there is no moral reason not to sell weapons to either side. Or even both sides...although there may be practical issues with that one, since the two sides may have objections.
Hmmm. Slavery is a complex topic and I'm not in favor of slavery based on race; I think that is immoral. But slavery, as a basic concept, isn't necessarily immoral. It's certainly preferable--at least in most cases--to just killing them.
But in any case, Miles wasn't shipping slaves, he was shipping weapons to a group that wasn't morally objectionable.
...
If the objection is that someone might (or almost certainly would) use the weapons to kill people...I have no problems at all with that as a basic concept. It's the specific details that matter, at least to me. And selling people weapons to defend themselves with is almost never an issue to me.
Now, whether or not it's a smart government policy is a very different issue from whether it is morally correct for an individual. And I don't believe that governments or corporations can be moral--they have no conscience or soul. Only individuals can be moral. Which is why it's important to hold individuals responsible for the actions of organizations and not allow the responsibility to be shuffled off on into a vague bureaucratic haze of non-responsibility.
Which is one problem that Miles doesn't have. In fact, it's one of the things that the "true Vor" continually strive to achieve in a changing world.
However, there are a lot of things in life that are morally neutral. In this case, transporting the weapons was certainly not immoral. It could be seen as immoral not to do it, but that might take a big stretch too. So I regard it as morally neutral. Except that it did allow Miles a way to meet the ethical obligations he did have.
Re: The Warrior's Apprentice, book 3 « Reply #13 on Mar 23, 2010, 8:55pm »
Eek, now I've gotten terribly behind! Work is totally kicking my butt this semester. In fact, I'm off to Mississippi in a couple days to give a talk, so I don't have time to do more than read the great comments you guys are making. But I should have more time next week. I'm glad you're feeling somewhat better Gene. I hope your recovery goes smoothly this time 'round.
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